THE MAGIC IS DEAD!

For discussions about everything Star Wars that's not related to just one particular film....

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2501
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THE MAGIC IS DEAD!

Post by 2501 » Wed May 18, 2005 7:04 am

When I was a kid, it captured me with every mighty magic grip it had, but as I grew and became more aware of everything, especially that I'm now a critical artist myself, everything that is in any characteristics of an art form, I will see it with my bittersweet eyes.

When I watched EP1 over a couple of times, I really detest that how the characters spoke with nothing more than reading out their own flat scripts. It hurt my eyes to see how flat the camera is framing every conversation scenes. And all these are amplified in EP2.

And I will say again that Lucas is nothing more than a savvy businessman. A bad storyteller, scriptwriter and film director he is. His agenda of creating the 3 prequels is probably recreating a new generation of followers to continue the "magic."

Just watch it like every other Hollywood SFX extravaganza, and it will be fine.

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Post by hbng » Thu May 19, 2005 12:35 am

How's your reaction after watching EP3 (if you've done so already)?

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Re: THE MAGIC IS DEAD!

Post by danchia » Thu May 19, 2005 9:32 am

2501 wrote:When I watched EP1 over a couple of times, I really detest that how the characters spoke with nothing more than reading out their own flat scripts. It hurt my eyes to see how flat the camera is framing every conversation scenes. And all these are amplified in EP2.

Hmmm , quite an astute observation, Derrick. I do agree with you on both counts.

I think in EP1 and EP2 , Lucas didn't quite bother with how his actors perform . Principal filming for EP1 took only 3 weeks , I believe , and Lucas was often satified with the first take, much to his actors' chagrin , who felt some times that they would have liked to do another take. This is in direct contrast to directors like Stanley Kubrick who stretched his actors to their limits by doing as many as 30 or 40 takes of a scene . Kubrick's final work, Eye Wide Shut , took a whole year to film. I think Lucas wasn't bothered by his actors' performances because he always felt that they could be tweaked post-production.

As you know, his Star Wars saga was his homage to the movie serials of the 1940s and early 1950s, like the old B grade Flash Gordon serials. They had a charm all their own, and Lucas was also trying to achieve that kind of tone in his Star Wars movies. I remember reading an interview with Natalie Portman that quoted her as saying that a voice/dialect coach was actually hired to help her flatten out the natural tone of her speech and to get rid of her natural accent. She was taught how to speak almost in a monotone , to reproduce the way that actresses in the 1940s or 1950s used to speak, actreseses like Greta Garbo or Marlene Dietrich , so in a way , what we the audience interprete as the flat reading of lines may actually be what Lucas deliberately tried to achieve.

Whether or not he was correct to do this is in the eyes of the beholder, I guess. :)

And I will say again that Lucas is nothing more than a savvy businessman. A bad storyteller, scriptwriter and film director he is. His agenda of creating the 3 prequels is probably recreating a new generation of followers to continue the "magic."

Just watch it like every other Hollywood SFX extravaganza, and it will be fine.

Again, I agree with everything that you say about Lucas being a savy businessman . That said, he HAS surprised me with Episode 3 , however, and I hope you see it with an open mind and sit back and enjoy yourself . Don't let the cynicism that you have developed from having been burnt too many times by too many bad movies prevent you from enjoying a movie that is basically just fun , my friend . Otherwise life can get really boring. LOL .

Not everyone is a Coppola , Kubrick or, hey, even Spielberg ( at his greatest .... Schindler's List , Empire of the Sun , A.I. :wink: )

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Post by 2501 » Fri May 20, 2005 7:24 pm

I have tried to embrace the film with my entire simple and open mind, I even tried to allow myself to be numb by the SFX, but in the end, it is not I, but the film itself has let me down.

I do respect Lucas for his creativity and effort to create the first trilogy, but he has not respected any of us for our loyalty, by creating the finale that is not even worth my simple US$8 that I paid to watch, let alone my faith in him as an artist.

The only scene that is worth mentioning is the moment when Anakin and Padme were apart, thinking about each other. This non-dialogue scene has created a silence that is so loud in our human heart.

In a movie where nothing is real other than a human speech and emotions, one has to really make the scripts and acting bang out loud to make a storytelling a convincing one, but in this case, it seems that if it was a silent film, it would have been better.


How about some logic? There seems to be none in this film's plot.

On what sense that he has to justify his killing of so many helpless kids and many other people, for his one and only selfish reason, that is to stop his nightmare from becoming true, or we could say to prevent his secret wife from death?

On what sense that he will believe a political leader who is only a chatting buddy only when he was called upon, but not his mentor who has raised and taught him as if he was his own brother since he was a little kid?

On what sense that he will easily believe a myth about the eternity of life can be achieved through the dark side of the force, but not any words from the Jedi council, which is the good side of the force that he has grew up with?

On what sense that he can choose to help an ugly and evil looking Sith lord who is trying to kill a Jedi master with such an evil laughter and devilish lighting bolt, and not the Jedi master who is not only kind and harmless looking other than the light saber, but also a Jedi master that he look upon since he was a kid?

On what sense that he can easily made up his mind to give up all his faith as a Jedi and accept the demonic Sith lord as his new master, after realising what he has done by being the accomplice for killing Windu?

How could one and only selfish reason justify all these selfish and mindless actions?

How could such a big giant corporate leader create such a dumb film and trilogy? Why would he even bother to create it? Other than the reasons to revive the starwar franchise, and help his corporate to churn more money. The people at LucasArts said it themselves, that the brand is dying and it was the creation of the new trilogy that kept the franchise alive.

I really question how people will allow themselves to enjoy this movie, unless you are as senseless and blind as Anakin, and allow yourself to look past all flaws and dumbness. :cry:


*sorry for my bad grammar ^_^\

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Post by 2501 » Fri May 20, 2005 7:29 pm

and Why ESB is the best out of the saga?

Lucas had the invaluable help of screenwriters Lawrence Kasdan (Raiders of the Lost Ark) and Leigh Brackett (The Big Sleep), and director Irvin Kershner, who knew how to loosen up actors.

I felt cheated and wasted tons of my braincells. Now I have to watch some good films to ease the pain. :oops:

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Post by donleow » Sat May 21, 2005 4:17 am

I think is okie to comment and express individual expectation of the movie but do keep comment moderate and gentle for the sake of general interest of the crowd to avoid any interest of conflict.

May the force be with all of you.

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Post by 2501 » Sat May 21, 2005 4:27 am

^_^ no hard feelings

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Post by danchia » Sat May 21, 2005 9:06 am

2501 wrote: I really question how people will allow themselves to enjoy this movie, unless you are as senseless and blind as Anakin, and allow yourself to look past all flaws and dumbness. :cry:


Derrick ,

I have some pressing matters at hand and will reply in greater detail later, but would just like to leave an initial response to your post.

I respect your opinion, and agree with you that Star Wars is far from a perfect film, and I am talking about the entire saga.

However , I would like to request that you consider the sensitivities of other fans on this message board when you post. It is perfectly fine to post your opinion on the film, and if you don't like the film , well, we accept that. But your statement above is hitting far below the belt, and very insulting to the majority of the fans on this message board, so do try to be more considerate on this board. Please refrain from any personal attacks on the character, intelligence or preferences of the fans on this board .

I'm curious . If you now despise Star Wars so much , why have you remained on the sg_starwars mailing list for so long, and why did you come to this board ? Nothing personal, and certainly no offense intended , I am just genuinely trying to understand your perspective....

daniel

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Post by 2501 » Sat May 21, 2005 1:29 pm

For the same reason as everyone of you~ I love starwars with all my heart.

sorry for that comment ^_^\ no hatred or hard feelings intended.

I was just frustrated that a corperate leader allowed himself to make such flaws when he has all the powers and resources at his finger tips to make any powerful film he likes.

Other than the bad acting and scripts in EP1, I still like that film. It was even well paced and well edited. We get to see so many amazing things in there that are not on the original trilogy. And another great villian, other than Vader is created in there. I can say that I almost like everything in EP1 other than the bad acting/scripts. That will explains why I have watched EP1 so many times over and over again. And from here on~ everything seems to go downhill.

But I have very high expectations of EPIII, which is the last SW film that is coming out on the big screen, and a resourceful film director has not taken his film making seriously.

Well, imagine EPIII is the first SW film instead of the all other episodes, it will be easily forgotten like all other SFX blockbusters churning out of Hollywood, and probably there won't be a sequel, let alone trilogy.

Sorry again ^_^

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Post by danchia » Sat May 21, 2005 6:37 pm

We're relieved that at least you enjoyed Episode 1, derrick ! LOL

Anyway, no hard feelings... we do hope you continue to stay on this forum and join in the discussions. We look forward to seeing more of your posts . It's good to see an alternative perspective sometimes, and perhaps EP3 may even grow on you with time. :D

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Post by 2501 » Sun May 22, 2005 7:05 am

:lol: EPIII will never grow on me

well, if I have better skills in writing and broader mind in expressing, my review on EPIII will be like this review by IGN:



Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith
Review: Angst and inconsistency in a galaxy far, far away...


May 11, 2005 - Across the Internet...and mainstream media as well...critics are blindly embracing Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith. Less level-headed reviews hail the film as an unequivocal "masterpiece." Others extol RotS ("rots"?) as a triumphant return to form by a franchise that, by many accounts, has lost its way. No matter how one considers it, the fervor surrounding Episode III is insurmountable.

Said hubbub vividly illustrates the admirably cushy position in which George Lucas found himself when approaching this last cinematic installment of the Star Wars cycle. His preceding two chapters were so ill received by fans of the "classic" trilogy (Episodes IV, V, and VI)...and so thoroughly stupefied hapless newbies...that a root canal without anesthesia seemed preferable to another dose of the overwrought, self-important pabulum heaped upon viewers over the last six years.

In other words, Revenge of the Sith is not the "masterpiece" some make it out to be. It is, simply, a far more worthy installment than we've recently been fed. Its currently lofty status is a mirage, induced and perpetuated by the shameless hokum which preceded it. This being said, it should be noted that Sith, perhaps more than any other film in the sextilogy, tries valiantly to be a "real" movie – and often succeeds. But, in doing so, it also forgoes the most fundamental tenets of storytelling.


When creating any universe or mythology, the sky's the limit. People can be any color a creator wants them to be, be from any time or place of the creator's choosing, and do anything a creator wants them to do. The physical laws of our world can be tweaked, suspended, or thrown out completely (e.g., The Matrix). This being said, the overall universe (story) these elements exist still has to make sense unto itself – it still has to be consistent.

Just because we're in "a galaxy far, far away," for example, does not mean that the "laws" of that galaxy...or the intricacies driving stories told in that galaxy...can be ignored. This factor can be applied to any kid of broad-canvassed storytelling: mythology, science fiction, historical romance, etc. For example: on Earth, Superman can fly. But, what if someone came along and told audiences, "Superman can only fly on Tuesdays, even though he flew in last month's comic installment"? It would not make sense, because such rules and limitations had not been previously established or upheld in the Superman mythology. This is the kind arbitrary, sloppy thinking that ultimately dilutes Star Wars: Episode III, and prevents it from becoming all that it could have been.

* The evil Chancellor Palpatine – who has quietly puppet-mastered an entire Galactic Republic throughout these prequels – suddenly declares "Order 66", prompting tens of thousands of "Clone Troopers" to suddenly turn on & assassinate the very Jedi they've been fighting beside for years. At face value, they murder their friends and comrades – simply because they were told to do so.

This severely dilutes the impact of the long-awaited "Jedi purge." Revenge of the Sith spends God knows how long on political and metaphysical ranting and raving, yet one line of crucial explanation would have brought greater substance and meaning to this dramatically essential event. Were the Clones imprinted with "sleeper programming" when they were hatched at the clonery (which would serve to exemplify the horrific, and boundlessly patient, depth of the Sith's long-term plans)? Does Palpatine have a brainwashing device of some sort? Is a piggy-back zombiefication code imbedded in Palpatine's trans-galactic snuff command to the Clone armies? Or, are the Clones simply brainless and stupid? If so, I'm selling a bridge in Brooklyn, and I've more than a few tasks for them...

We've been waiting for this moment since Obi-Wan Kenobi (Alec Guinness) first alluded to the fate of the Jedi in Episode IV. We see the moment, and it is well executed (excuse the pun). But we do not understand the event. It's vacuous, and feels like a plot device rather than the gut-wrenching betrayal it was clearly intended to be.

* In Episode II - Attack of the Clones, Anakin Skywalker senses the torture (and impending death) of his captive mother from far across the Galaxy. He drops everything, goes to rescue her, and fails. This is a pivotal plot point in RotS.

Yet, in Sith, Anakin fails to detect the presence of the twins gestating in his wife's womb, even though he is sleeping in the same bed as the woman. Furthermore, one of these twins is eventually "hidden" on the same planet from which he detected his mother in Attack of the Clones – only this time the location is implied as remote enough to "avoid detection by the Sith." So, which is it? Thus, one of the primary dramatic thrusts of the entire franchise hinges on conceptual inconsistency and lack of internal story logic. Perhaps the Sith are as stupid as their Clones? Or, perhaps they need new writers...

* In the earlier prequels, Jedi skydive from tremendous heights, dodging aerial traffic & leaping from impossibly high balconies like flying squirrels. So, how can a principal Jedi character in this film die...by falling? The same discrepancy rears its ugly head in Episode VI - Return of the Jedi, by the way. This undercuts the intent of the sequence, and the fate of the key character.


* The Jedi are repeatedly able to detect unrest in The Way of Things. They can sense an individual's restless spirit, or the plight of a colleague endangered millions of miles away. Yet, they can stand in the center of their enemy's power base, and be completely blind (or only vaguely suspicious) as to who...and what...they are truly dealing with?

The Jedi make noise about their order's diminished ability to use "The Force." So, if they are aware of this shortcoming...and if the future of humanity (and the entire galaxy) is at stake...shouldn't they be a bit more proactive in figuring out what the enemy is up to?

There are tremendously compelling conceits to be mined here: the hazards of political/religious over-extension, our personal/collective accountability and responsibility in dire times, etc. These issues are poked at, but never addressed full-on. A true waste for a film whose tone and substance purports to be so deep. As it stands, these obtuse and A.D.D. Jedi deserve what they get.


The inconsistencies are limitless, and there's a startling common thread in each of the examples cited on the previous page. The dramatic crux of Episode III is driven by sheer stupidity, but NOT the involving, high-brow, human-nature kind of stupidity one might expect to see when dealing with themes of politics and "power." Just lazy, un-focused stupidity in storytelling.

"You're taking this too seriously!" some will protest. "It's just a Star Wars movie!" others will add. Perhaps. But Revenge of the Sith is a culmination of thirty years of detail and mythology, carefully honed across multiple media platforms. There is an innate responsibility to be "truthful" to the material at hand, no matter how frivolous its essence may appear at face value. Sith asks us to embrace its urgency, and buy into its angst. Yet it does not make compelling arguments to do so. Like a reckless and impatient teenager behind the wheel of a very cool car, RotS is determined to get somewhere, but it doesn't care how it gets there – and it amasses casualties along the way.


This being said, Revenge of the Sith is, most definitely, a monumental step in the right direction. Actors Hayden Christensen and Natalie Portman (Anakin and Padme) manage a generally believable chemistry this time around – starkly contrasting their previous turns with these characters, which unfolded with the stilted awkwardness of a middle-school play. The capable Christensen, so woefully repressed in Episode II, shows respectable chops here – although it is actor Ian McDiarmid who truly carries the film. His seductive, grandfatherly malevolence as Anakin's manipulative benefactor is so enthralling that we actually miss his personae once he degrades to the level of standard, cackling, B-movie "Emperor."


David Tattersall's cinematography – both texturally and compositionally – is breathtaking. Even ugliness is beautiful in this movie. Roger Barton & Ben Burtt's editing, and Lucas' direction, are far crisper, more nuanced, and imminently more self-assured than evidenced in either previous (prequel) chapter. In nearly every regard, Revenge of the Sith feels more natural...and is more viscerally enticing...than either The Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones.

Even with all these imperfections, RotS is the kind of film that should have launched the prequels back in 1999. In its own haphazard way, it boldly endeavors to emulate the trilogy it is building towards, while maintaining a distinct personality of its own. If we'd worked our way up from this, imagine the possibilities. Alas, two out of three ain't bad.

Or, is it?

This Fall, Lucas & Company will begin developing a live-action television series set in the twenty year time span between Episode III and Episode IV. Given the batting average of the last decade, it's hard not to wonder if undertaking a series of this nature is wise, or if The Powers That Be may be better advised to exit on the "not-totally-sucky" note that is Revenge of the Sith. Never one to pay heed to such considerations, Lucas recently announced his hands-on involvement with the series, and will likely return to direct multiple installments. May The Force be with him.

May The Force be with us all...
Last edited by 2501 on Sun May 22, 2005 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by 2501 » Sun May 22, 2005 7:10 am

Glen Oliver wrote that review, and he gave 3/5 on IGN and Rotten on rottentomatoes.com

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Post by masterjamous » Tue May 24, 2005 2:50 am

Read your posts. Couldn't agree with you more.

The Prequels' acting [except for some stalwart veteran actors] & screenplay is generally passé . But the CG and SFX is excellent & perhaps groundbreaking for the particular industry. Important to note, were all written, directed and screenplay by GL solely.

These will certainly always pale in comparison to the original trilogy. Just look at the directors involved ESPECIALLY for ESB [ - Irving Kershner, his teacher from USC] and you must note the all important screenplay writer who was roped in then - Lawrence Kasdan who polished it. Even for ANH, although it was stated "written & directed by GL", he had in fact the help of Carrie Fisher to script-doctor it. This was where the magic sprang forth.

With all his wealth, GL should have roped in others more capable in direction and screenplay to augment his unique space saga saturated with CG & SFX.

But alas, he's basically a passionate film editor and as gleaned from various magazines feature interviews, the clue lies in his lack of TIME to bring on the show as SCHEDULED as well as to carry on the franchise. Where FRANCHISE is concerned, money making is always implied.

So me the ardent fan have to settle with eye candy in the form of better CG/SFX and merchandising instead of an all round magical storytelling in the screenplay with strong direction in the acting/charcaterisation. Sigh...

As a fan, I wished GL had just to provide the all important CG and SFX in the editing but left the directing to some other more focused and gotten a talented screen playwright for polish.

Until then, I shall find solace in the books on the SW universe [you'll notice always "Story by GL. Written by So and So] for great storytelling and the DVDs for eye-popping-candy.

And may the Force be with you. Always! :mrgreen:
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Post by 2501 » Sun May 29, 2005 4:54 pm

"Until then, I shall find solace in the books on the SW universe [you'll notice always "Story by GL. Written by So and So] for great storytelling and the DVDs for eye-popping-candy."

any books to recommend? I have not read any of the SW books.

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Post by masterjamous » Tue May 31, 2005 1:45 am

You should read these:

The Thrawn Trilogy by Timothy Zahn:
Heir to the Empire
Dark Force Rising
The Last Command

The Hand of Thrawn Duology by Timothy Zahn:
Specter of the Past
Vision of the Future

Shadows of the Empire by Steve Perry

The Bounty Hunter Wars by K.W. Jeter
The Mandalorian Armor
Slave Ship
Hard Merchandise

The Jedi Academy Trilogy by Kevin J. Anderson
Jedi Search
Dark Apprentice
Champions of the Force

I, Jedi by Michael A. Stackpole


Do check out in the "Novels" section - star wars book checklist posted by xjedi who gave a list of books in chronological timeline
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